Category: sexual behavior

STEM, Patrik, Free Speech, and the Female

And other odds and ends.

Zman agonizes over “scientific theology” and how the Left has delegitimized genuine STEM. While his complaints are valid, what does he expect? The Right has always been anti-science, anti-empirical, faith driven, and full or irrational dogma-driven kooks. Thus, the Right has handed over STEM to the Left without a fight.

Emphasis added:

SidVic

Yes, and the nonsense from the left tees up a reaction from the right. Vox Day and Owen Benjamin are seriously auguring flat-eartherism and fake moon landings. They have lost any faith in scientific authorities and for good reason. It’s understandable, but nonetheless get your kids vaccinated.

thezman

Someone told me one of them is now saying dinosaurs are a hoax.

Stina

I think the anti-dinosaur theories are interesting.

Not a serious subscriber to any theory, but my personal faves are demons (nephilim) and dragons.

I’m more skeptical of the claim that dinosaurs and humans didn’t coexist. And yea, with science in the place it is, we are seriously living in a post-science age.

Liars is how we got here.

David_Wright

Why, I’m pretty old and I don’t remember any such creatures.

Anyways, the troll Owen flirts with all nonsense. Not to say paleontology isn’t corrupt like many academic sciences.

George Orwell

I lost much respect for Beale when he started peddling the moon landing hoax shinola.

And, guys, if you depend on a piece of absolute filth like HBD shill race traitor Cochran to carry water for you in scientific debates, you have already lost. With the death of Harpending, you guys have absolute ZERO competent STEM folks on your side.  Me, I could have been on your side, but I’ve had enough of your retarded and destructive Der Movement, Inc. I care only about my own groupuscule; and all of you can just go to hell among your mix of HBD pseudoscientist hacks, science-deniers, moon landing hoaxers, flat earthers, Flintstone paleontologists, and “traditionalists” gibbering about Yogi Bear (“Kali Yuga”) and “the men who can’t tell time.” The Right, particularly the Far Right, actively rejects and repulses genuine STEM people. You can’t even retain foaming-at-the-mouth Nutzis like Ted Sallis on your side.  What does that say about you and your (lack of) dedication to scientific truth?

And I must say that the (Far) Right has a lot of chutzpah to accuse the Left of a blind-faith “theology” on science, when Der Movement is at least just as bad.

Also see this.

Again: The Right activity repels and repulses STEM people and other academics, and then they wonder about the dominance of the Left in the intellectual life of the West (or what passes for it).

When the whole Greta Thunberg thing erupted, I stupidly and naively thought to myself – “even Der Movement, with its insanely obsessive ethnic fetishism and ultra-Nordicist obsessions, won’t make Ladogan Greta into some sort of admirable “movement” heroine.  Even they wouldn’t go so far.”  Well, I was wrong.

So, when I now joke about Der Movement praising the Swedish homosexual anti-racist infiltrator of the Alt Right, Patrik Hermansson, I should probably reconsider and stop treating it is a joke. Likely they will start praising Hermansson. Let’s see how this can be done:

You see, Patrik became involved in HopeNotHate because of his noble idealism. Being derived from northern high trust hunter gatherers, Patrik’s racially superior disinterested propensity to societal consensus, and his rugged Nordic individualism, has made him prey to the dastardly machinations of greasy omnidominant Mediterraneans. Patrik is not at fault!  His natural propensity to heroism – of great benefit to all humanity! – has been hijacked, and once he returns to the fold of his people, he’ll put on his horned helmet, pick up his battle axe, and be a scourge against the scurrying swarthoids!  We need more men like Patrik Hermansson. 

Cue Durocher, TOO, and Counter-Currents….

Let us once again consider Inyoung You, now the new poster girl for MGTOW.  Emphasis added:

Rollins’ comments came as she announced that Inyoung You, a 21-year-old former Boston College student, was charged in an indictment with involuntary manslaughter for her boyfriend’s suicide.

You allegedly tracked the location of her boyfriend, Alexander Urtula, on May 20 and was present when he jumped from a parking garage just hours before his BC graduation, Rollins told reporters.

Girlfriend charged in Boston College student’s death after telling him hundreds of times; to kill himself, prosecutors say

Authorities said You was “physically, verbally and psychologically abusive” toward Urtula during their relationship. That abuse became more frequent, more powerful and more demeaning in the days and hours leading up to his suicide, Rollins said.

You sent him more than 47,000 text messages and prosecutors said she had complete and total control over Urtula. She repeatedly told him to “go kill himself” or “go die” and that she, his family and the world would be better off without him, officials said.
She also allegedly used manipulative attempts and threats of self-harm to control him and isolate him from his family, officials said.

Determining motive is an important part of a criminal prosecution.  Here are some questions the prosecutors should be asking, and ordinary men should be asking as well:

At what point in the relationship did You decide to drive Urtala to suicide?

Did You get involved in the relationship from the beginning with the objective of driving Urtala to suicide?

If You was present at the suicide, did she derive sexual satisfaction from watching it?  Did she orgasm?

What was the underlying motivation for these behaviors?  Anti-male hatred and envy?

Now, the White Knights – some of whom are homosexual – will have fainting vapors over these questions, but too bad. Given the facts of the case, and given the society-wide implications for judging general female behavior, these questions are wholly legitimate.

As regards Durocher’s comments about how women nag men to enforce (the female perception of) social norms, we can consider the implications for the specific case of women being allowed to participate in racial activism.  Will they behave the same way there?  Will female activists nag male activists to be more moderate, be less radical, accept a feminist perspective, accept “based” non-Whites, accept Neocon agendas, etc?  Consider how the French Front National was emasculated and wrecked by Milady Marine, Queen of Mainstreaming, and all for naught, leading to a humiliating electoral defeat.  Any lessons learned there?

An effective answer to the moronic shitheel Jeelvy, who is, by far, the worst and most juvenile writer in the history of racial activism.

This is the dire reality of today.  Meanwhile, the grifters tell you that victory is just around the corner just as long as you send in the “D’Nations.”  After all, life is expensive in those blue state utopias – all those gym memberships, movie tickets, and visits to Europe (that, curiously, the leading grifters can do with impunity while Taylor and Spencer are banned) – you guys gotta pay for it.  Give dem dere shekels!  After all, those who give live in the golden age today!  Savitri Devi will thank you for it!  By the way, isn’t it interesting that all these “traditionalists” who love Evola are pro-feminist White Knighters who oppose the very “traditionalist” ideals they profess to believe in?

Also note Trump’s Homeland Security is proposing censorship of his own supporters.  Trump: A man of genuine greatness – sincere genuine greatness!

By the way, a defense of free speech from this blog from several years ago – see here.

We need politics – all our “metapolitical” grifters do nothing but waste money that could have been used more effectively elsewhere.

The Arctic Alliance marches on.

So much time, so much failure.

Incel Rebellion

Reaching out to the disenfranchised.

Extending from “movement” discussion about the woman problem, I note this comment:

I have no problem with “losers in their mama’s basement” being in our movement. These are the white people who, in addition to whatever faults they might or might not have, have been systematically discriminated against as whites (particularly as white males) and systematically demoralized and even made mentally ill by the sick anti-white indoctrination that they have received from the schools and the media.

If we can’t embrace and help these people — welcoming them while recognizing that the abuse they have suffered will have affected their personalities and character, then what are we here for? I know what I’m here for — to defend myself and my fellow white people, especially my fellow white males who have suffered the double whammy of being demonized and discriminated against both as whites and as males.

I agree. That contrasts to “movement leaders” such as Spencer and their constant ridicule against incels and other disenfranchised White men.  

It is absolutely mind-boggling that “movement leaders” publicly and aggressively mock, ridicule, and attack their followers and, more importantly, potential followers as “incels,” and “manlets” and other System-approved insults against disenfranchised White men. This can be called, for want of a better term, “Chad posturing,” failed “movement leaders” engaging in high school-level “throw the nerds in the locker” ego-stroking chest-beating to the detriment of the well-being of racial activism.

The idea that all “incels” – never mind the MGTOWs (many of whom actually have voluntarily given up on women, contrary to those who claim MGTOWs are simply incels in denial) – are pimply-faced losers hiding in their parents’ basements, and hence worthy of being rejected from racial activism, is just System propaganda.  Now, of course, some of them are just such people, but not all, and, likely, not most. I believe that most incels are simply (White) beta males who are shut out of the sexual marketplace by female hypergamy, crazed feminism, and the racial-sexual caste system that places White men at the bottom of hierarchy (and the anti-incel “movement leaders” thus tacitly support this anti-White hierarchy). Instead of embracing these White men, instead of calling them brothers and welcoming them into the fold of pro-White activism, our gaggle of “leaders” reject them and force them into an unnatural aracial alliance with non-White incels (mostly Asians). The self-defeating stupidity of this is breathtaking (but not surprising).

The “movement” surprisingly had the correct “take” on the Sky King episode, but they are unable to realize that for every person who indulges in a romantic gesture of defiant self-destruction, there are literally thousands, if not tens of thousands, of similar individuals who haven’t quite reached that point yet, and who are excellent human material for a dissident movement.  Instead of enthusiastically reaching out to this mass, and selecting from it the best quality recruits, the “movement” scorns them.  After all, we can’t all be as successful as the Prince of Pilleater and the King of Charlottesville now, can we?  If these “leaders” believe they need to eschew incels because they don’t want their “movement” tainted by “losers” then they have the entire situation backwards. The incels instead would be justified eschewing a pathetic “movement” that is defined by constant failure.


And I would like to point out that mainstream conservatives – and, yes, that means Bannon too – contemptuously attempt to use incels in an instrumental manner,  And then we have that estrogen-enriched effeminate freak Wylie pontificating publicly about it. The incels get it from all sides. Disenfranchised by society.  Hated by the Left.  Targeted by the Matriarchy. Exploited by conservatives.  Mocked and ridiculed by the Chad Right.

As a side note, I won’t even go into detail about the utter stupidity of the “manlet” slur, as if height is some sort of relevant criteria for a man to be a successful and competent activist. Richard “wrecked the Alt Right” Spencer and Greg “strangely obsessed with the height of Tom Cruise” Johnson are perfect examples of this. They can mock “manlets” all they want, but they can’t escape the taint of their own constant comic ineptness and unremitting failure.

Getting back to incels and related individuals, I define the group in question, the group in its broadest dimensions, as Incels-MGTOW-Men’s Rights-Manosphere: IMMM. These IMMMers – and here I specifically refer to White men only – can be a potent force. Dissident movements often have recruited among the socially disenfranchised, but the point is to select the best among those. Of the many White IMMMers there are large numbers who are quality individuals, and of those, there may be thousands, maybe tens of thousands, who have the potential to be high-tier activists. The National Socialists recruited their Brownshirts from among the disenfranchised.  Given the ascetic nature of the Legionaries of Romania, there were no doubt proto-incels and proto-MGTOWs among them. These were not “losers.”  They were political solders, or a caliber much greater than the sniggering Beavis-and-Butthead “Chads” and grifters who prance and preen on the “movement” stage with their attitude of superiority over those less well off (but who ask for “D’Nations” from them). We may have among the current IMMMers similar people of quality as the Legionaries, solid human material for pro-White racial activism. Thus, we observe yet another opportunity being recklessly squandered by the incompetent Quota Queens lifted to positions of leadership by the “movement’s” ethnic affirmative action policy.

I will give advice of “dos and don’ts” to IMMMers, starting with the “don’ts”. Don’t give in to despair. Don’t engage in acts of violence, lashing out, which does nothing but empower female victimology as well as destroy your own life, while practically accomplishing nothing and actually damaging the cause you profess to believe in.  Don’t make common cause with racially alien men, whose presence in your country plays an important role in your own dispossession and disenfranchisement, and who are given advantages by the System over you. And don’t believe that White racial activism is completely defined by the Chads, freaks, queers, and grifters who mock you and your plight, or who ignore you in favor of the Matriarchy.

Do become as successful as you can in your life.  Yes, the deck is stacked against you, but you still have room to maneuver, you can still rise in the face of your oppression, and your success will be an extended middle finger to the System, the Yeastbuckets, and the mocking Chads.  Do become racially conscious, embracing a militantly revolutionary pan-European nationalism.  Do get involved in politics, broadly defined, make your voice heard, infiltrate the System, vote, run for office, start blogs, network, and get out into the world and make an impact to defend your interests and those of your kind. Do support revolutionary voices who speak out in defense of disenfranchised White men, such as the Ted Sallis/EGI Notes/Western Destiny groupuscule. Do send the link to this post around like-minded colleagues, spread the word about this blog and what it stands for. Create your own groupuscules…JUST DO.

It is time to make your voices heard.  It is time to stand up like men and make your impact on society, in a manner that will have lasting effect, not by some infantile acting out. It’s time to get out of the shadows and into the light, into the arena, into the fray of politics, broadly defined, as well as metapolitics. It is time for defiance, a time to make a stand.  It is time for the Incel Rebellion to demonstrate to an uncaring society, to the sneering of the SJW Left and the mocking of the Beavis-and-Butthead Right, that you will no longer be ignored, that you are a force that must be accommodated. Review the Dos and Don’t’s and do the former and don’t do the latter.  And help spread the word about those who support you, such as this blog and its associated groupuscule.  


As regards the latter, note that I ask nothing from you except assistance in “spreading the word.”  Unlike the grifters of the “mainstream” Far Right, I do not ask for money, unlike the mainstream conservatives I do not ask that you go out and vote Republican, and I derive no income from this blog so my request to “spread the word” is not rent-seeking behavior.  My objectives are purely political and personally disinterested – to actualize pro-White policies, to pursue White interests, to remake society, and, in particular, to defend the interests of the natural leaders of White society – White MEN.  This battle is your battle as well.

Smash the System!  

(but do it wisely, prudently,and legally)

Odds and Ends: Behold the Female

And other items.

Behold the female:

Do Chinese women menstruate?  Seriously though, given the enormous genetic distance between Europeans and East Asians (note to Derbyshire), what makes these authors believe that their findings are generalizable?

Men do breast cancer research. Women help the cause in the only manner they are capable.

Resigns in disgrace.  Blames “revenge porn.”  Agency, where art thou?

Evolved to manipulate the male sex drive?  What stage in their cycle were those women flashing their breasts during the World Series? Probably much pre-menopausal female behavior can be ascribed to hormonal fluctuations rather than to rational thinking.

Read this.  Works with a virus.  Refused the vaccination.  Can’t handle a mouse without accidentally injecting herself with the virus.  Can’t remember what strain of virus she was using for the experiments.  I think milady should just stick (no pun intended) to things she can handle – like flashing breasts – and leave the lab work to fully evolved humans (men).

The evil of the XX chromosomes strikes again.  Just like the Carter case.  My explanation? Envy. Just as non-Whites hate, and want to destroy, Whites because of racial envy over inherent White superiority in all things (except for adaptive fitness), so do women hate, and want to destroy, men because of inherent male superiority in all things (except the ability to control sexual urges).  Just like non-Whites leverage White guilt and pathological altruism to exact their racial revenge, so do women leverage their sexuality to destroy men. They do so purposely and with malice aforethought. 

Related to the female issue:

Three take home points from Durocher:

First, he deals with issues that can be construed to be critical of women and the role women play in the West’s decline.  Any snide tweets from Sir Gaslight about this?

Second, his comment about the rise of homosexuals in Der Movement having at least partially to do with their lack of having nagging women around “enforcing social norms” is consistent with my assertion that those same homosexuals have no right to lecture heterosexual men about the place of women in racial activism and in the broader society. Not having to deal with the female in any sort of meaningful personal manner, the homosexual contingent’s input is as “useful” as are the racial comments of (high trust no doubt) SJW Whites who live in all-White areas but who sing the praises of racial diversity (for the rest of us).  By the way, the rise of the homosexual contingent is also due to the intense self-promoting networking their clique has been doing for the past 15-20 years, and their cynically instrumental promotion of certain “movement” dogmas in order to gain increased influence over the great unwashed of rank-and-file activists and over naive (heterosexual) “activist leaders.”

Third, Durocher’s despicable hypocrisy is on display once again when he writes about the “truth hurting” when it comes to biological group differences. This is a guy who only wrote about East Asian admixture in Northern Europe after weeks of ridicule from EGI Notes and then engaged in bizarre hand-waving to convince his readers that said admixture (the extent of which he understated, by the way) is of “great benefit to all humanity.” 

Other items:

Consider Judge Napolitano – that puff-haired Levantine wop whose face looks like it was formed by a spastic child jamming its fingers into a ball of putty. If we assume that Arabic Andy is a man of the Right, we observe a difference between Left and Right.  If a leftist commentator were to (rarely) criticize a liberal Democrat politician, particularly a President, they would criticize from the Left, they would accuse the individual in question of being insufficiently liberal, insufficiently progressive. They would never adopt rightist talking points to attack someone ostensibly on their side.  Rightists on the other hand routinely adopt leftist talking points to publicly criticize rightist political figures. Trump can, and should, be criticized from the Right; instead, “conservative” commentators critique Trump in exactly the same manner as their leftist counterparts. Is it any wonder that the Left always wins?  Of course, in this case, there have been suggestions that Napolitano’s constant sniping at Trump is due to his dago disgruntlement over being passed over for a judicial appointment.  If true, that’s one graceless guinea.

At this point, Der Movement has become a ludicrous caricature of itself.  Is there anyone or anything Swedish that Der Movement is not going to praise, identify with, worship, and be pathologically reticent to criticize in the slightest manner?  Thunberg is an obnoxious little turd, an arrogant flat-faced Ladogan over-flowing with self-satisfied SJW moral posturing, and Der Movement just can’t get enough of her. Forget about jumping the shark, Der Movement has jumped both Moby Dick and the Pequod, and is now hurtling over the Pacific Ocean. All we need now is for Durocher to write an essay describing how Patrik Hermansson is of great benefit to all humanity.  What about Friberg though?  Is that a Swede too far?

Counter-Comments comment about the good and great Greta:

Jud Jackson

Posted October 29, 2019 at 5:34 am | Permalink

Has anybody besides me noticed that she is supposedly 16 years old and yet looks like she has not gone through puberty yet? She looks like she is 11 or 12 at most.

Come now, Jud, don’t you know that those low-hormone k-selected Northeast Asians mature slowly?

Another shallow, superficial Counter-Currents post, the comments for which are better than the post itself. To reduce redundancy: Another Counter-Currents post.

Is this a reference to Pilleater’s revelations about drug use by certain parties at certain racialist meetings, combined with the drunken podcasts from DC-area loft apartments?

I’ll agree that such cliques are destructive.  Other ones are as well.  Pilleater commented on those also.

Grist for the Mill

More hard truths about the female.

Behold the female (emphasis added):

Psychologist Leon F. Seltzer has offered explanations for the phenomenon of male serial killers attracting female sex partners based on evolutionary psychology. Serial killers, in his view, are cases of alpha males that tend to attract women. This is because such males were good at protecting women and their offspring in our evolutionary history. Women nowadays may consciously realize that it is unwise to date a serial killer, but they are nevertheless attracted to them, as he notes “as a therapist I’ve encountered many women who bemoaned their vulnerability toward dominant men who, consciously, they recognized were all wrong for them”. As evidence of women’s fantasy preference for dominant men, he refers to the book A Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the World’s Largest Experiment Reveals about Human Desire by Ogi Ogas and Sai Gaddam. Seltzer discusses Ogas and Gaddam’s argument that this fantasy is the dominant plot of most erotic/romantic books and movies written for women but the fantasy always holds that this male dominance is conditional, “it doesn’t really represent the man’s innermost reality.”

One of the most infamous examples of hybristophilia is the large number of women attracted to Ted Bundy after his arrest. He often drew scores of women at the jammed courtrooms of his trials each day. Bundy allegedly received hundreds of love letters from women while he was incarcerated.
Jeffrey Dahmer, a serial killer, is said to have had amorous women sending him letters, money, and other gifts during his time in prison.
Serial killer Richard Ramirez married a female groupie in prison who had written him over 75 letters. During his trial, dozens of women flocked to the courtroom to catch a glimpse of him.
Charles Manson’s groupies are also examples .
Terrorists such as Anders Behring Breivik and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev have also been the objects of hybristophilia.

Hundreds of love letters.  Hundreds.  For every single individual male serial killer or other male celebrity criminal – someone openly and obviously identified as defective by society – there are large numbers of ordinary “normal” women madly in love with them. And then there are the findings (this is just one example) that show that men with a criminal record are more successful with women than are law-abiding men.

Women: A sex selected by evolution to be demented sociopaths in the modern world.  All grist for the mill for Der Movement.  Indeed, sociopathic male grifters would want vacuous female airheads around, and this is more so if the males in question are impervious to the sexually manipulative behavior of (in particular, attractive) women. The women are part of the “D’Nations” herd and can be lures to bring in thirsty beta males as more cattle to be milked for “D’Nations.”

Read this.

Counter-Currents comment:

Brandon Martinez
Posted October 26, 2019 at 2:34 am | Permalink
If you believe that a substantial portion of modern white women can be “red-pilled” and join our cause, you are severely deluded. Women follow the crowd, and the crowd is against us. Only when fascist dictators came to power did women get in line out of necessity. If it’s not a necessity, they will simply tow the line of the predominant cultural narrative being set by our enemies. Trying to win over white women to white nationalism is about as futile as trying to win over jews or blacks to it. It is a wasted effort and energy better placed elsewhere, such as in obtaining political power.

Yes. Now, let us be clear here.  My comments about women are all about plain honesty and ice-cold realism. I never said that women should be completely excluded from activism. Consider the Legionary movement.  It was all male, but had an associated women’s group. That is reasonable, particularly if the women in their own group are held to high standards as are the men.  But we should never forget the reality of sex differences and never forget that the women should be subordinate to the men.

Greg Johnson
Posted October 25, 2019 at 6:33 pm | Permalink
I think she is a groupie. She was sleeping with Eli Mosley, and the scuttlebutt at the time was that she was dragging on more than Richard Spencer’s cigarette while he was still married, and while she was with Mosley — or at least pretending publicly to be with him.

Johnson should ask the following two questions – if Spencer is really as vacuous and destructive and amoral as you apparently believe he is, then how did he so quickly rise to prominence in the “movement?’’  Why did he so quickly get folks like Regnery trusting in him?  An honest answer to those questions would have to include an acknowledgment that Der Movement’s ethnic affirmative action program is a very real thing, and that Spencer checked off all of the boxes – none of which included the item of actual merit.

Let’s all feel bad now for this horrendous little Ladogan, whining about being mistreated online. Welcome to the rough-and-tumble of celebrity politics, you obnoxious semi-mongoloid twit. No one forced you to be a public figure, with your harridan “how dare you” and all the rest.  A perfect example of the female mentality.  This is where Johnson, as usual, gets it all wrong.  It’s not that WE say “women have no agency.”  It is that women themselves, when the going gets too tough, start whining as if THEY believe they have no agency, and therefore should have no accountability for their actions. They want equality of rights, but no equality of responsibilities.  They behave like spoiled children. 

Greg Johnson
Posted October 26, 2019 at 4:10 pm | Permalink
There aren’t millions of people in the movement.
And the Alt Right did crash and burn because of bad decisions made by bad leaders.

Yes, indeed; case in point: Greg Johnson.

Greg Johnson
Posted October 26, 2019 at 4:02 pm | Permalink
Whenever you see a sycophant like Evan McClaren or Chris Dulny, I want you to think of a tiny fish that clings desperately to a big fish for the ride — as well as for the privilege of eating its shit.

You forgot to include John Morgan on that list.

The Homosexual Question,Part II

The second half of this discussion.

Here, we will take a look at Andrew Joyce’s comments on the matter of homosexuality, and I will determine if my views as outlined here in Part I require modification.

Several points. First, I am not going to comment on every single argument Joyce made, only those I believe are most relevant to a critical examination of my views (and his) and/or those comments of his that I wish to comment on even if they are not directly relevant to the main issue. Second, in general, much of Joyce’s work (insofar as I am familiar with it) is in my opinion good; however, there are points of disagreement and criticism which come into play here, which should become apparent below. Third, my overall personal attitude toward homosexuality is similar to that of Joyce; however, I am here attempting to view the issue from the perspective of what is best for the pro-White movement as a whole rather than my private aesthetic preferences.  Fourth and finally, although Part II concludes this analysis, I reserve the right to revisit this issue in the future, possibly significantly altering my conclusions.

This essay is intended to advance the position that homosexuals should be regarded as anathema to the Alt-Right, and to the broader White Nationalist movement.

Well, forget about the so-called “Alt-Right,” which is essentially dead, killed by the stupidity and juvenile retardation of its “leadership,” and let us instead focus solely on “the broader White nationalist movement.”  The overall question both Joyce and I are considering is what place, if any, do homosexuals have in White nationalism?

I once previously involved myself in the comments section of AltRight.com, arguing against homosexual apologetics. The response was overwhelmingly supportive, but one or two homosexual malcontents made the following accusations: first, that I was involving myself in a dispute between the editors of AltRight.com and Counter-Currents publishing; second, that I was evidently a repressed homosexual; and third, that this was somehow an attempt to boost my personal status. On the first point, I am not invested personally in the debate between AltRight.com and Counter-Currents publishing, but almost two years ago (long before the dispute) I was writing against homosexual apologetics and offered counter-arguments to at least one Counter Currents author.

Perhaps, but it is fairly obvious as to which side of that feud Joyce predominantly sympathized with.  That of course is not directly relevant to his arguments, and to argue (no pun intended) otherwise is ad hominem.

I deal with the bankrupt rationale behind the second accusation in the course of the essay. 

That accusation is particularly stupid ad hominem and Joyce really shouldn’t even had bothered spending any time answering it, other than pointing out its stupidity.  If a person is against “activity X,” it does not necessarily follow that they have repressed urges regarding “X.”  It is true that the “doth protest too much” sometimes applies when someone hysterically argues against something, but that is over-used to the point of absurdity regarding homosexuality.  Are homosexuals so deluded that they cannot understand why many heterosexuals are disgusted by homosexual behavior, for reasons other than “repressed homosexuality?”

On the third point, my aspiration to personal status is necessarily limited by my anonymity. I aspire neither to ‘status’ nor to leadership. I am aware of the limitations of my position, and only wish to advance an argument. That such an argument might damage the credibility of others may be considered the primary reason behind accusations against me personally in this regard. 

The same principles apply to much of what I write here on other issues, but never mind.

Then there are nervous and cowardly assertions from some that the issue isn’t an “obsession” for them, and therefore isn’t one that they waste their time on. Those that do, of course, are simply “protesting too much,” and there must be something suspect about them. According to this line of thinking, men ‘secure in their sexuality’ simply wouldn’t address the topic.

This is not really directly relevant to Joyce’s argument, but I do want to comment since it can be construed that I am, or at least was, one such person who stated that homosexuality was not a big issue (I did not use the word “obsession”) for them.  Joyce is being unreasonable in labeling such attitudes as “nervous and cowardly.” Maybe – who knows? – some of the people involved simply do not rank the homosexual question very high among those affecting the future of the White race.  It is an opinion, a judgment, about priorities – to label that “nervous and cowardly” is the same dishonest ad hominem Joyce’s opponents use against him.

Our movement, consisting as it does of often bickering circles, should at the very least be made to conform in some fashion to the world that we are striving for. 

Fair enough. Given Salter’s logical arguments about the gay marriage movement (the analysis of which was in Part I of my evaluation of the homosexual question, linked to above), and the links between homosexuality and other perversions, never mind the nature of homosexuality itself, a reasonable argument can be made that homosexuality is incompatible with the WN world we wish to strive for.

A situation in which known movement homosexuals and their circles can posture as spokesmen for National Socialism or White Nationalism would be laughable were it not for the fact that it was tolerated with such lethargy by the ideologically lazy and those intimidated into silence by Jewish psychological parlor tricks. 

Genuine National Socialists in inter-war Germany tolerated homosexuals, only moving against them because Ernst Rohm wouldn’t accommodate the political ambitions of the SA to Hitler’s regime. The anti-homosexual hysteria was part of the excuse for the purge; if the Nazis were genuinely horrified by gays they had nearly 15 years previously to deal with the issue.

Worldview is the foundation of ideology. Ideology is the foundation of activism and morale. Clarity of worldview, and its practical expression in whatever achievable form, is non-negotiable. Just as there is no room in this movement for Jews or Africans or Pakistanis, the over-arching rationale for an exclusion of homosexuals is the fundamental incompatibility of their inclusion under our worldview.

We will consider Joyce’s arguments in the next two sections. His arguments will include:

The various reasons underlying this incompatibility may be regarded broadly under two categories: the biological implications of homosexuality (issues of disease and demographics), and the behavioral traits and personality of the homosexual (issues of personality characteristics and socio-cultural impact). It is to these categories that we now turn our attention.

One of the main reasons for the instinctive aversion to the subject of homosexuality is the strong correlation of homosexual behavior with disease and bodily degradation and deterioration. Contrary to high-minded philosophizing, health is not merely a personal or private matter, but a political one. In the over-populated mass societies in which we now live, the cost of healthcare in a market of increasingly scarce resources becomes, by necessity, a political issue — and this fact stands even in the context of privatized medicine, where premiums and costs will still be dictated to a great extent by expenditure in particular areas. The relationship between homosexuality and health in the mass society thus becomes not merely a matter of what is done behind the closed doors of the individual, but a matter of at least some public interest — especially if homosexuality can be determined to be a net financial drain on the resources of the vast majority of the population. If such a drain can be established, homosexuality necessarily becomes a subject of political discussion, and silence on the issue (the status quo in the political mainstream) becomes a political decision of sorts.

This is a reasonable argument.  The same argument can be made against smoking and obesity, two leading causes of cardiovascular disease and cancer.  If we are going to have injunctions against homosexuals – which I am not particularly strongly opposed to – then we can do the same for fatsos and smokers, and I am completely serious about that.  National Socialist Germany – if folks want to use that regime as a moral compass – was opposed to smoking and also made a fetish of physical fitness (at least for the masses if not for the leadership, the latter of which were, in general, not splendid physical specimens, with Goring being overweight).  And what about WNs allegedly using cocaine?  And doing so at meetings?

There is now a large body of evidence from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, and similar organizations outside the United States, indicating that homosexuals suffer from worse than average health and that much of this is rooted in health-negative lifestyle choices…The annual cost of caring for and treating all HIV/AIDS sufferers in the United States has been ascertained as $16.4 billion annually…In addition to the runaway problem of HIV/AIDS, homosexuals are the leading cause of the rapid spread of other sexually transmitted diseases, an area of public health that is becoming increasingly expensive. For example, scientists in several countries have now identified a new antibiotic-resistant strain of gonorrhea. Doctors feared this new strain reaching homosexuals in particular because their behaviors and characteristics are known to exacerbate such diseases…Aside from transmittable disease, homosexual behavior takes a grim and nauseating physical toll on the human body, a fact so well-documented and as to obviate any need to recount the odious details here. Perhaps even more importantly, however, homosexual behavior is often accompanied by a range of mental pathologies. Assessed as vectors of disease, and as a group likely to be a significantly greater drain on mental health and related resources, homosexuals can be reasonably argued to act as a much greater burden on national health budgets than the sexually normal. 

Joyce’s arguments are sound from the descriptive perspective.  I’m not sure what to do about it from a prescriptive perspective, since homosexuality seems to have a strong biological component, and one can expect a certain percentage of gays to be born each generation – unless one speculates that the maintained existence of homosexuality over the millennia has been due to homosexuals being married with families for the sake of appearances, and thus passing on their genes (and this mode of inheritance is today attenuated with the general public acceptance of the gay lifestyle).  However, if these people are capable of bedding the opposite sex, are they truly biologically homosexual?  Are they bisexual?  There may be degrees of homosexual inclinations, and perhaps the best that can be done is to discourage the practice as much as possible, unless some folks propose to screen each generation for gay traits and eliminate those elements from the population in one manner of another.

Aside from issues of disease, demographics are another biological reason why homosexuality should be regarded as a political issue worthy of attention. In this regard, it has been argued historically that homosexuality threatens the demographics of a nation because it is reliant on ‘converts’ and thus, in recruiting individuals from the reproductive population, leads to an overall decline in birthrates. 

See my comments above. This would suggest a sexual spectrum, in which some individuals could be hetero or homo dependent upon environment.  To the extent that is true, Joyce’s argument has validity. I do not know to what extent the gay community is biologically innate and to what extent it has been recruited.

This may be regarded as the ‘homosexual conspiracy’, or ‘recruitment’ theory of homosexual demographic impact. My own impression is that the ‘recruitment’ problem is not as severe a demographic problem as some of the proponents of this argument maintain, mainly because I believe that an overwhelming majority of the population, apart from the psychologically vulnerable (children and adolescents in particular), would be impervious to homosexual efforts to propagandize their specific behaviors. 

See above.

A more potent demographic impact of homosexuality, in my opinion, is the transmission and tolerance of more generalized aspects of homosexual behavior to the normal population — hedonism, childlessness, substance abuse, promiscuity, and the relatively novel idea that relationships are exclusively about love or similar abstractions — all of which will lead to a drop in birthrates. Despite my own opinion, both demographic arguments require further elucidation.

How about a demographic critique of Derbyshire’s apologia for miscegenation?

The reliance of homosexuals on ‘recruitment,’ most often in the form of pederasty, has been well documented throughout history. At present, homosexuality has not been conclusively determined to have been caused by either genetic or environmental factors. Whatever its causes, homosexual behavior was always a minority problem. Attempts by modern scholars, often those with a ‘dog in the fight,’ to read homosexual behavior into this or that historical era or individual are often riddled with logical errors, use of anachronistic terminologies, and omissions of contrary data. However, what we can ascertain is that homosexual behavior was evident in ancient Greece and Rome, but appears to have been less common in northern Europe. Also in evidence is an abundance of primary documentation from contemporaries critical of homosexual behavior. An example combining both of these realities is the description by Tacitus of the Germanic tribes taking “the man stained with abominable vices” and plunging him “into the mire of the morass with a hurdle put over him” — an indictment of some of the tolerances of Roman society as well as an accurate anthropological description of ancient Nordic social governance.

See my comments about Nordicism below.  Also, much of this is irrelevant to us today.

Given the historical and contemporary prominence of the pederastic element, the ‘homosexual conspiracy’ or recruitment theory should be regarded as pertinent to demographic decline mainly in respect to the relationship of the homosexual to children or adolescents…These findings are important on a movement level. Like the Imperial Roman army, we aim to create an environment of camaraderie, loyalty, teamwork, and, where necessary, authority. It is an unfortunate fact that, also like the Imperial Roman army, there would be a vulnerable minority among the younger members of the community to those who would abuse authority for perverse ends. Far from mere conjecture, anecdotal evidence and historical data suggest that homosexuals have routinely exploited any tolerance shown to them in such environments — from Imperial Rome to the presence of pederasts in the Sturmabteilung of the 1930s and the British National Front of the 1970s. Such a threat is not the stuff of nightmares or unfounded anxieties; it is a proven reality. In terms of its pederastic component, the tolerance of homosexuals in the movement is thus, at the very least a disaster for morale (and a cause for division between those who are alarmed and those two turn a blind eye), and at worst a personal disaster for the unfortunate victim of ‘recruitment.’

Here, Joyce is touching upon a real issue, as the “Pilleater recording” makes clear. If the contents of that recording are true (and I note neither party was arguing against the validity of the accusations) there are precincts of the “movement” in which homosexual “flirtation” toward somewhat “vulnerable” “younger members of the community” occurs.  In the light of that revelation, I cannot argue against Joyce’s warning that homosexuals will exploit environments of “camaraderie, loyalty, teamwork, and, where necessary, authority” to further their sexual interests.  Of course, there are other aspects of “The Pilleater Chronicles” that need to be addressed as well, such as the accusations of drug use.

In any case, this leads to:

Perhaps even more notable is the fact that even our own movement has tolerated similar ‘educational’ efforts promoting ‘tolerance and understanding’ of homosexuality. I am of course referring to the substantial volume of homosexual apologetics emanating from Counter-Currents Publishing. It is necessary to examine and critique some examples.

HOMOSEXUAL APOLOGETICS WITHIN WHITE NATIONALISM

In a Counter-Currents article titled ‘Homosexuality and White Nationalism,’ Greg Johnson states that members of our movement shouldn’t be concerned about homosexuality because, one, “it is beside the point,” and two, “intolerance of homosexuality is Jewish.” The rationale in the first instance is that “White Nationalism should be a one-issue political outlook. White Nationalism is for the interests of Whites and against the interests of our racial enemies. Period.” The presentation of such a simplified argument is quite clever because, superficially at least, it is difficult to disagree with the statement of such a priority. However, it leaves a great deal unsaid. What does it mean for something to be “for the interests of Whites”? What about the health, and health resources, of Whites? What about the demographics of Whites? What about the morale of movements for White identity, and White culture at large? Homosexuality and its promotion can be demonstrated as being in opposition to all of these interests. A movement reduced to an unsophisticated “one-issue political outlook” would be cartoonishly absurd, lacking in nuance and direction. Pointing to “the interests of our racial enemies” in the context of such an apologetic is also an absurdity. Homosexuals, like other antisocials, violate and disturb the social norms of our people, placing themselves at the disposal of the enemies of our people, and acting as a weapon for their plans.

This would seem to be a key part of Joyce’s argument.

Johnson proceeds to argue that we should “resist falling for any form of the divide and conquer strategy used by our enemies to destroy our solidarity.” Homosexuals are said to be “real assets” to the movement because they “are intelligent and accomplished…Are freer to speak their minds because they give fewer hostages to fortune. They also have more free time and more disposable income to devote to the cause.” Truthfully, what loss would we experience by exiling these ‘real assets’? Where are all these homosexuals, so much ‘freer to speak their minds’? Where are they, other than producing anonymous homosexual apologetics? 

Valid questions.

Yes, a great many members of our movement are anonymous. There is no inherent shame in that. But homosexuals have not distinguished themselves by bravely taking to the front line, or by filling our coffers with funds.

If homosexuals in the “movement” would be open about their sexual preferences, then we would at least have some empirical basis for determining relative contributions.

The article continues: “Battles between gays and straights, men and women, pagans and Christians, Nordics and Mediterraneans, Celts and WASPs, Germans and Slavs, etc. have no place in the White Nationalist movement.” What a clever lie it is to suggest that the removal of homosexuals would entail the same scale of conflict as would ensue between Germans and Slavs. How many homosexuals are in our circles? Not many. And those that are here, for the time being, would be no loss, numerically or otherwise, in the eventuality of their departure.

How many?  We need to get an idea about that.  I think that people on both sides of the issue would want to know.

The idea that “hostility to homosexuality is Jewish” is as insidious as it is false. The claim rests on a combination of poor understanding of pre-Christian European attitudes towards homosexuality and a predictable infatuation with a generalized view of the more appealing (to the modern homosexual) culture of the ancient Mediterranean. Firstly, as a northern European, I am concerned more with the ancient customs and traditions of my own ancestors — Saxon, Celt, and Norse. 

Yes, we know of Joyce’s agenda here. I make two points. First, I thought that Der Movement tells us that the Ancient Greeks and Romans were Nordic.  Do we see the hypocrisy here? When the discussion revolves around “the grandeur and glory of Ancient Greece and Rome,” then, of course, they were Nordic.  However, when the discussion is about the relative tolerance of homosexuality in those areas of Classical Civilization, then they are, of course, Mediterranean. Second, has Joyce realized that the primary players promoting homosexuality in Der Movement are of similar ancestry to himself?  Really, this whole issue is an argument between heterosexual and homosexual Northern Europeans, but, yet, mysteriously, the “noble Nordics vs degenerate Mediterraneans” paradigm surfaces. This is another example of Sallis’ Law in action, I suppose, although in this case it is not about “admixture,” but simply a generalized negative comparison of bad Meds vs. good Nords. Why would any White ethnics believe that Der Movement has anything to offer them? Obviously, the most debauched homosexual Northern European is going to be preferred to any Southern or Eastern European, regardless of how heteronormative the latter may be. Just look at how some of the (assumed) homosexual contingent of Der Movement are accepted by many activists as “top leaders” – the same activists who scorn the dumb wops and hora-dancing Romanians.

Anyone familiar with the Icelandic Sagas…

And could any self-respecting Type I activist not be?

… [in which accusations of homosexuality are a primary and severe insult between characters] will be aware that murder, for example, was something that would have to be either personally avenged by the murdered party’s relatives or be arbitrated by an ad hoc tribal court.

Relevance?

The lack of a written law against murder in this instance, or the lack of a fixed, state-administered punishment for it, did not suggest ‘tolerance’ or ‘acceptance’ of murder. Such an argument would be absurd. In the same way, it would be intellectually unsophisticated, if not disingenuous, to suggest that the same societies were ‘tolerant’ or ‘accepting’ of homosexuality. Like all arguments based on an ‘absence of X,’ this is especially weak. The exposed nature of such an argument is made even more problematic by the existence of pre-Christian legal codes which, while not legislating specifically against homosexuality, clearly locate it, via the available legal contexts, outside the normal and the desirable. An interesting case in this regard comes from Ireland’s ancient, pre-Christian, ‘Brehon Law’ — the oldest surviving codified legal system in Europe, and possibly a relic from the first proto-Indo-European populations. Like most examples of pre-Christian legal codes from North-Western Europe…

The only part of Europe that matters!

…Brehon Law was a civil rather than criminal code. Interestingly, it makes a provision for women to divorce their husbands if they were found to be homosexuals.

Common sense.

Roman law, which to a greater extent than any contemporary nation did develop state-administered punishment, is very interesting in the same regard. Lacking a Christian God to offer divine authority and direction, the Romans legislated against asocial activity in a manner that balanced individual freedom (a long-cherished European trait) with social priorities (order, health, stability, decorum). Since Roman law legislated against pederasty, as well as homosexual activity between freeborn males (in some cases under threat of execution), Roman law should be regarded as having de facto outlawed homosexuality in the form in which is mainly exists today. The fact that a Roman male citizen could legally engage in sexual activity with a slave (regarded as property with no bodily individuality or self-ownership), or with a prostitute (a sub-human in social and legal terms), is not a strong counter-argument. In short, there is at least sufficient evidence of opposition to homosexuality in pre-Christian Europe to refute the blatant falsity that ‘opposition to homosexuality is Jewish.’

OK, but to my mind irrelevant.

On this point, however, one might ask — even if hostility to homosexuality was, in fact, a Jewish invention, would that be sufficient for us to discard it? 

I agree with Joyce that the “homophobia is Jewish” argument is foolish.  It reminds me of the Silkers, who try to get Whites to agree to become the slaves of Asians because otherwise, if you object, then you are either a Jew or a tool of the Jews who “sucks Jewish cock.”  Can we evaluate the validity of a premise independent of what Jews think about it?  Do Jews control us to such an extent that our every thought has to be through a Jewish lens?

Another element underpinning the ‘homophobia is Jewish’ falsity, is an implicit homosexual hatred of Christianity. 

I could care less about what Christianity thinks or whether someone or some group hates Christianity.

On a related note, the accusation that hostility to homosexuality is Jewish may be regarded as a passive, or barely concealed, attack on Christianity. Again, this is not surprising in itself, but it is incongruous in the context of apparent arguments being made in favor of movement unity. 

Consideration of “movement unity” is ludicrous coming from a “movement” that despises everything and anything to the south of Vienna and to the east of Berlin.

Essentially, the argument put forth by Johnson is that it is wrong to critique homosexuals because that is bad for movement unity, when in fact the apologetic itself purposefully attacks Christians (a very numerically substantial element of our movement) as ‘Jewish.’ In such a manner, our erstwhile architects of unity are in fact the cause of disunity, not merely by their very presence but by the divisive nature of their own arguments. Given what we have discussed thus far, it should be clear that if we had to choose between Christians and pseudo-pagan homosexuals, our movement would be numerically, demographically, tactically, socially, and intellectually enriched by choosing the former over the latter.

Perhaps numerically, but the devout Christian element often display the same flaw as the homosexual element – putting something proximate (in this case religion) above the ultimate interests inherent in genetic continuity.

We should also consider modern Jewish attitudes, and what Jews are promoting to us today, rather than what they preached to themselves thousands of years ago. It goes without saying that a people engaged in ethnic warfare would arm itself with the best tools possible while simultaneously weakening the opposing tribe. Jews chose to arm themselves with social mores designed to boost their numbers, but what they did preach to their opponents? 

What do they preach?  HBD. Hysterical opposition to any hint of pan-European racial-cultural unity, but allowing some ethnic-specific expression by Whites.

As Jews flooded the medical and scientific professions in the late 19th century, they brought with them the desire to interrupt the European self-conversation about race, biology, and related subjects. One of these was homosexuality. 

Again, why does everything need to be looked at through a Jewish lens?  Joyce is weakening some of his arguments above.

Although Jewish sexology, and with it the promotion of homosexuality, was effectively shut down by the National Socialists…

Well, at least after June 30, 1934.

…it would live on in exile, along with other poisonous doctrines, with the Frankfurt School. 

Jews, Jews, Jews.  I’m ignoring this part of Joyce’s argument, since it is irrelevant.

The following however is key.

THE PROMOTION OF HOMOSEXUALITY WITHIN WHITE NATIONALISM

One might be tempted to dismiss the position of Counter-Currents on the homosexual question as merely wrong-headed, ill-informed, or even amateurish. However, I believe that many of the writers there are intelligent, historiographically literate, and are probably aware that they are producing an argument with an agenda attached. One of the more annoying aspects of their position, however, is that it is framed under the rubric that ‘homosexuality is beside the point.’ Even if this were true, which in terms of our demographic and social concerns it is not, Counter Currents have not stuck to their professed ‘line.’ In fact, through the publication of volumes such as James O’Meara’s The Homo and the Negro, and a number of articles acting as apologetics for homosexuality, they’ve done quite the opposite. I only very recently looked at The Homo and the Negro for the first time and was stunned at the publication, by an ostensibly Nationalist organization, of a set of writings that promotes pederasty.

Here is a key point that I believe is more important from the perspective of my views from Part I. Joyce, after all, is adamantly opposed to any homosexual inclusion, while I maintained in Part I of my analysis that some inclusion could be possible if the homosexuals did not promote homonormalization, but instead promoted heteronormalization.

In The Homo and the Negro O’Meara advances a number of arguments that should now be familiar, and with which we have already dealt with. 

So, I’m not going to waste too much time on this.

Are family values really Judaic, as O’Meara claims? Consider one example contrary to this homosexual apologetic in the form of what Tacitus said of the ancient Germans…Moreover, recent DNA studies in England support previous research from the University of Oslo suggesting that Viking men were family-oriented, coming from communities where the marriage bond was strong and did not engage sexually with the women of lands they conquered. Rather it was found that Viking raiding parties were accompanied by significant numbers of women, and possibly whole families. 

These guys are so fanatical in their ethnic fetishism that they use any excuse to indulge in it. It’s comical. Here’s something different (emphasis added):

Homosexuality was not regarded by the Viking peoples as being evil, perverted, innately against the laws of nature or any of the other baggage about the concept that Christian belief has provided Western culture. Rather, it was felt that a man who subjected himself to another in sexual affairs would do the same in other areas, being a follower rather than a leader, and allowing others to do his thinking or fighting for him. Thus, homosexual sex was not what was condemned, but rather the failure to stand for one’s self and make one’s own decisions, to fight one’s own fights, which went directly against the Nordic ethic of self-reliance. (Sørenson 20). Being used homosexually by another man was equated with cowardice because of the custom of sexual aggression against vanquished foes. This practice is documented in Sturlunga saga, most notably in Guðmundar saga dýra where Guðmundr takes captive a man and his wife, and plans for both the woman and the man to be raped as a means of sexual humiliation (Ok var þat við orð at leggja Þórunni í rekkju hjá einhverjum gárungi, en gera þat vi Björn prest, at þat þaelig;tti eigi minni svívirðing.) (Sørenson 82, 111; Sturlunga saga, I, 201).

Back to Joyce:

Again, are family values Jewish? Perhaps only in the mind of a manipulative homosexual who wishes to cynically use ethno-nationalistic instincts and a righteous hostility towards Jews in order to advance his own agenda — by tarring everything that he himself abhors as “Jewish.” 

I have not read O’Meara’s book. However, if Joyce’s characterization is accurate, that such a book is promoted and sold by Counter-Currents is shameful.

I must concede that had the Catholic Church had more power to enforce its doctrine, Europe would still be flourishing demographically, and a mass Muslim invasion would be nothing but a nightmare never to come to fruition.

Would the Pope stop literally kissing the feet of Negro invaders?

Why would O’Meara and Counter-Currents publish and promote such ideas, denigrating the family and selfishly glorifying their own preferences? Here it is necessary to confront the issue of the homosexual personality and to return to our central argument of the incompatibility of homosexuality and Alt-Right principles. 

Alt-Right principles?  Drunken podcasts?  Snorting cocaine at racialist conferences?  Race-mixing and cuckoldry?

As stated earlier in this essay, psychological studies indicate that homosexuals score higher than the sexually normal on traits associated with psychopathy, including higher rates of promiscuity, a greater tendency to high-risk activity, higher rates of intimate partner violence, low levels of impulse control, and a tendency towards bouts of exaggerated sense of self-esteem/importance. 

Sounds like some heterosexual Alt Righters.

Combining an understanding of homosexual personality traits with homosexual apologetics produced within White Nationalism, it becomes clear that dishonesty (“homosexuality is beside the point, let’s not discuss it”) and manipulative behaviors (“hostility to homosexuality is Jewish”), and an exaggerated sense of self-esteem/importance are at least primary concerns to those wanting to steer the cause of Whites in the right direction. Evidence of the latter is surely in evidence both in O’Meara’s claim that the Right persists in depriving “itself of the elitist cultural creativity of homosexuals,” and Greg Johnson’s apparent belief that homosexuals are “real assets” to the movement because they “are intelligent and accomplished…Are freer to speak their minds because they give fewer hostages to fortune. They also have more free time and more disposable income to devote to the cause.”

Such promotions of homosexuality are inherently insidious and are proof that, consciously or not, issues of White success, particularly demographic success, are likely to always be subordinated by the homosexual in favor of theories of life or behavior which glorify or excuse his own predilections. 

This is the key point, and one that Joyce could have primarily emphasized from the start, instead of going into other tangents to titillate “movement” fetishes.

The fact that an ostensibly nationalist writer can openly praise a pederastic author who denigrated the reproductive relationships of normal, healthy families is a sign of a degenerative rot that has developed in the corners of this movement. The toleration of such a rot has been the cause of disunity — not surprising given the apparent success of the lie that “tolerating homosexuals will increase our unity.” Quite the contrary. I have nationalist friends of many stripes, and a number of them have previously avoided aligning themselves rhetorically or materially with institutions like the National Policy Institute, or concepts such as the Alt-Right, because of an apparent tolerance of homosexuals and their apologetics. As a father of three, I have also had serious reservations about the kind of movement I am trying to raise my children in. Raising them in an environment that tolerates the open promotion of pederasty is out of the question.

Joyce should keep in mind that certain elements of the Alt Right now hostile to homosexuality were once quite welcoming to it, but changed their tune only after feuding with Counter-Currents.

This essay will cut out some of the rot, and bring clarity to some issues and questions that have been left to fester. It is largely a thankless task, and a dirty one too, but the Augean Stables must be cleansed.

To be fair, I’ll reproduce a riposte by Johnson:

Greg Johnson
Posted October 22, 2018 at 1:59 pm | Permalink
After Joyce’s “definitive” series on the Gay Question, it came out that Richard Spencer put a gay furry in charge of his Discord server, despite repeated warnings. This guy would probably still be running Spencer’s Discord if it had not been shut down. When a recording came out of Spencer’s moderator sexually harassing and bullying a 14-year-old boy, I asked Joyce how much he would charge for a definitive four-part series on “The Furry Question in White Nationalism,” but I received no reply.

There is no limit to the moral squalor of these people.

There is no refutation there about any of Joyce’s arguments; rather, that comment essentially accuses Joyce of hypocrisy for not addressing alleged sexual perversions among Spencer’s group of people.  I’ll agree with the last line of Johnson’s comment IF we apply that to the entirety of Der Movement.  I have no “dog in the fight” with respect to the Johnson-Spencer feud (that apparently is not ending due to any HBDer intervention, despite what it may have looked like to we low information moralizers some months ago); I say “a pox on both your houses.”  Johnson’s comment does nothing except reinforce the idea that Joyce’s complaints are more general and relevant than even Joyce asserted.

Basically, where I am now about this issue is this.  Much of Joyce says is true, but with all the caveats and criticisms above.  My stance is not much changed from where it was in Part I. Assume the existence of a White person who is a homosexual but is otherwise an authentic WN, sincere in pro-natalist beliefs compatible with traditional family formation and heteronormalizaiton. They are upfront about their sexual identity, they understand it is abnormal, and they ask for nothing other than minimal tolerance and the right to participate in pro-White activism.  As it stands now, I would think that such a person can be included (albeit not as a leader).

Practically speaking though, my views and that of Joyce likely converge, because I’m not sure there are any people such as I describe above – identified homosexual WNs who are firmly pro-heterosexual, who ask for nothing except for minimal tolerance, and who do not promote a homosexual agenda.  It is sort of like the issue of “Jewish allies” – in theory, it could be possible, but in practice what you get is Hart and Weissberg.  Pro-heterosexual homosexual WNs are possible in theory, but in practice what you get is all what Joyce describes above.

So, I’ll stick with my Part I views in theory, but with the understanding that the practical actualization of that would be, at best, rare.

The Homosexual Question, Part I

Delving into a subject usually not discussed at this blog.

My general attitude toward homosexuality in the “movement” has been one of “live and let live” – not considering it a major issue or concern, as long as people were discreet. Perhaps I should have known better given some of my experiences back in the early days of Yahoo discussion groups.  I was aware of one homosexual WN group forming and I thought, well, if they want to do their own thing, but are sincere activists and concentrate on promoting White interests, fine.  Then one day I decided to go and read the posts at the group (at that time freely accessible to non-members) to better determine what was going on there. I found it to be a disgusting cesspool of campy Nazi play-acting, “leather Nazis” engaging in S and M, advertising sex acts to each other (“U piss, I drink”), etc.  I was, honestly, completely disgusted and at that time thought Pierce showed wisdom banning homosexuals from being members of the National Alliance.  Several years later, Salter’s On Genetic Interests came out, and that book, which had a profound influence on me, had a short section on homosexuals, essentially promoting a tolerant line – homosexuals actually should have even more invested in ethny (and of course extended family) since most have no children of their own, and has long as homosexuals support EGI, ethnic-based natalism, and traditional family formation then they should expect toleration of their sexual expression. So, one could (naively) think of the Yahoo experience as an aberration, and hope that the On Genetic Interests paradigm could serve as a way of going forward.

However, two other things occurred at around the same time, the early 2000s, of relevance. First, a (heterosexual) person of some importance in the “movement” at that time  – and who shall remain nameless here – warned me about a “homosexual clique” that had seriously undermined him. Somewhat later, another activist of long-standing informed me that a prominent “movement” personage – a “Mr. X” as we’ll refer to him here – was a homosexual, although one “in the closet” as Mr. X had made an effort to hide his inclinations (if the accusation was true).  Although I never heard anything else ever again about Mr. X in this regard, certain more recent incidents suggest to me that the accusation may have been correct, and that Mr. X may be involved, at least peripherally, in the aforementioned clique. These are obviously issues of concern – homosexual cliques undermining straight activists to replace those activists with homosexual counterparts, august personages “in the closet” with who knows what hidden agenda, etc. But, truth be told, I didn’t think much of it at the time.  My focus was solely on race and my own ideas and I didn’t care too much about what I perceived as peripheral issues.  And, after all, perhaps some of these accusations were mistaken, I thought at the time, or, irrelevant to the “movement” as a whole.  That was, of course, short-sighted on my part.

To further analyze this subject, let’s look at a more recent Salter essay.

A remarkable feature of the same-sex marriage movement, that has helped make it a juggernaut, is the solidarity of its disparate parts. Lesbian activists don’t mock gays before the general public, gay activists don’t ridicule bisexuals, bisexuals don’t disrespect the transgendered, and so on, presumably down the growing list of non-traditional sexual and gender orientations.

As an example of a pro-gay marriage piece from the “movement,” see this.  My riposte is here.  Note that while I oppose the main theme of that piece equating non-reproductive heterosexual relations with homosexuality, I take a generally tolerant position about homosexuality, a subject that I claimed at the time I had little interest in.  Thus I wrote:

I also agree that when considering homosexuality (a subject that in general I have little interest in), a “give and take” attitude can be constructive.  A degree of tolerance can be given to gays, in exchange for them to stop allying with the Left to wreck race and civilization, and an admission from their part that they are abnormal, analogous to a disability.  For example, I don’t hate people who are deaf, but if they attempt to declare deafness as normal, desirable, the same as hearing, if they also declare a “deaf culture” (and some do) and refuse treatments for themselves and (especially) their children (if deaf as well), then I do have a problem. The same goes for the blind, and also considers that accommodation can only go so far: we cannot have blind brain surgeons, taxi drivers, or airplane pilots, regardless of how “unfair” that is. Homosexuals need to accommodate the needs of the larger society in exchange for tolerance. They are abnormal regardless of how one wants to define that – either based on frequency or biological fitness.  But if they defend their family and ethnic genetic interests, that is all to the good. One can argue that homosexuals (and anyone who does not personally reproduce) have a relatively greater interest in their race’s genetic continuity (as well as that of their family), because that is all they have to work with to improve their inclusive fitness.  They also need to understand that many heterosexuals find the idea of homosexual relations repugnant and would – especially if they value genetic continuity – be greatly displeased if their children were homosexual and did not find some way to reproduce (as opposed to adopt). Of course, childlessness of heterosexual children would have the same negative effect on their parents’ fitness, but without the aesthetic disgust toward homosexual acts.

Having said all of that, better a homosexual racist than a heterosexual liberal.  Better gay than a race mixer.  I’ll take Ernst Rohm as a comrade over John Derbyshire any day.

Obviously, I’m now questioning that nonchalant attitude and will now examine Salter’s arguments.

That is odd because some categories, to be discussed, are noticeably absent from that list. Possible reasons for excluding them include the law, aesthetics, and morality. Legality can be immediately ruled out. Homosexuality’s illegality until recently has not prevented agitation for gay rights. Aesthetics can also be ruled out, because LGBTQI-rights activists have been pushing back against popular revulsion for decades. If they cited legality or aesthetics to justify excluding selected types of sexuality, consistency would demand immediate cessation of their own activities. No sexual or gender category can be credibly excluded from the LGBTQI fold for legal or aesthetic reasons.

Note that last sentence.  Salter makes the argument that the LGBTQI crowd has no legal or aesthetic rationale to exclude even the most horrific perversions from the fold – incest, bestiality, pedophilia (which some of them openly embrace), etc.

Morality is different. Morality is the only conceivable principled reason that some sexualities are excluded from the fold. Whether or not one accepts the morality of the alternative sexuality and gender movement, there are nevertheless some ethical principles associated with it. These include the rights to free expression and association. It is asserted that gender and sexual expression should be unconstrained when harmless and when entered into by mutual consent.

Free association?  Can gays be legally excluded from society?  Or must we bake wedding cakes for them?

These principles are sufficient to explain the exclusion of pedophilia from the LGBTQI platform. It seems the great majority of individuals of all orientations reject it. 

Well, “great majority” isn’t all. Interesting that most (all?) pedophiles among Catholic priests are molesting boys and not girls.  Coincidence?

Mary De Young has documented attempts by paedophile activists to normalize sex between adults and children from at least the 1980s in “The indignant page: Techniques of neutralization in the publications of pedophile organizations” (Child Abuse & Neglect, 1988).[i] A more recent study by O’Halloran and Quayle in “A content analysis of a ‘boy love’ support forum: Revisiting Durkin and Bryant” found that the trend has remained uninterrupted (Journal of Sexual Aggression, 2010). These attempts have failed to convince many people that children are able to give informed, prudent consent to sexual contact. It is true that educational packages such as the Safe Schools program sexualise children but that is not the same thing as advocating the legalization of paedophilia.

The fact is that some of these types have been trying to normalize pedophilia.

LGBTQI morality is not a credible reason for excluding all of the sexualities missing from that acronym. Consider polygamy, often called plural marriage. This was opposed by the Medieval Church and before that the Romans and Ancient Greeks, making Europe the only monogamous stratified society until the modern era.[ii] The law that enforces monogamy necessarily restricts the free choices of adults to participate in consensual polygamous relationship. If polygamy does not contravene LGBTQI moral principles, why is there not a ‘P’ in ‘LGBTQI? As Brendon Wynter noted recently on our public broadcaster (ABC Religion & Ethics, 24 March 2017) attempts to find a moral distinction between plural and same-sex marriage can lead to illiberal claims, such as that polygamy but not homosexual marriage is “bad or at least, trivial”.[iii]

A ‘P’ should be added to ‘LGBTQI’.

Very well.

Incest is also missing from the LGBTQI heading. From an LGBTQI moral perspective, why ban sex or marriage between any consenting adults? As the actor Jeremy Irons commented a few years ago, genetic disorders in the children of incestuous unions are only an issue with heterosexual pairs.[iv] LGBTQI advocates are not in a position to complain about incest on the basis of its being gay or lesbian. From their perspective, love and lust between consenting adults should never be condemned.

That last sentence follows from the gay agenda and can and will eventually lead to all sorts of grotesqueries – situations incompatible with the sort of healthy racialist state most WNs envision.

On what grounds could LGBTQI advocates object to marriages between mother and daughter or father and son, or object to them adopting? One ground that has been raised is a supposed categorical difference between those sexually attracted to close kin and those sexually attracted to members of the same sex. The former, it is claimed, do not belong to a distinct class of individuals but the latter do.[v] In the case of same-sex attraction, it is proposed, accurately, that homosexual orientation is sometimes inborn, and that as a result these individuals cannot change their same-sex attraction. Preventing them from marrying the same sex is therefore discriminatory. Incest is held to be different on the basis of the claim that it is a matter of free choice. For that reason, banning incestuous marriage does not constitute discrimination, and is therefore consistent with liberal ethics. This argument breaks down with the second premise, that incestuous desire is not inborn. The Finnish sociologist Edward Westermarck discovered that incest avoidance is a universal inborn trait that is triggered by close proximity during childhood. De Smet, van Speybroeck and Verplaetse investigated this theory in Evolution and Human Behavior (2014) and found that children raised together are usually averse to sexual contact during and after puberty.[vi] It follows that sexual desire for a sibling or offspring is in part or whole due to genetically-programmed developmental processes. The fact that incestuous motivation is produced when these processes go awry does not make them any less inborn. Thus incestuous motivation is not always a matter of free choice and in such cases, according to LGBTQI ethics, it is a right when consensual and harmless.

An ‘I’ should be added to ‘LGBTQI’.

Thus, according to Salter’s argument, the homosexual agenda has an ethical underpinning that would justify incest.

Bestiality also presents difficulties for the brevity of ‘LGBTQI’. On which grounds can advocates condemn sex with animals? As already noted, legal and aesthetic distinctions are unavailable. The rule against cruelty is also unavailable most of the time. Cruelty is wrong, and sex with animals can be cruel but so can sex with humans. The fact that animals cannot consent is not relevant because they do not, as a rule, possess human rights. In Australia and many other countries animals are protected against cruel treatment, but that does not include protection against being killed and eaten. Apart from militant vegetarians and vegans, most feel justified eating animals, so it is not obvious why, without invoking traditional moral or aesthetic standards, sexual contact that does not inflict suffering can be considered immoral.

The bestiality category is not an empty hypothetical. A recent academic study by Earls and Lalumiere titled “A case study of preferential bestiality”, published in the journal Archives of Sexual Behavior (2009), indicates that it is not as rare as previously thought, and shares many of the characteristics of other atypical sexual interests.[vii] Likewise, a recent report in the Australian online edition of The Guardian by Mona Chalabi, “Bestiality: which animals are most at risk” (22 June 2017), describes the online zoosexual movement that advocates the rights of the bestially inclined.[viii] The most preferred species appear to be dogs and cows, but cases are reported involving horses and even snakes. Woody Allen might add sheep.[ix]

There is a human dimension to the issue. Members of what we might reluctantly call the zoosexual community feel they are treated unfairly by the mainstream, which includes the LGBTQI movement. Some feel trapped in human relationships, such as the man who felt that sex with his (human) wife was “wrong” and during marital acts closed his eyes to better pretend she was a horse. Earlier this year an article in The Independent reported that animal sex tourism became such a problem in Denmark that in 2016 the country criminalized bestiality.[x] The journalist hinted that bestiality usually conforms to the harm principle: “[T]he studies published over the last 15 years using non-clinical samples report the vast majority of zoophiles do not appear to be suffering any significant clinical[ly] significant distress or impairment as a consequence of their behavior.”

Surely most LGBTQI people will share the generally-held opinion of bestiality. Many will be disgusted by the very thought and wish it never to be depicted or praised in public. They will wish that it never be part of their social environment and certainly not that of any child’s.

However, if LGBTQI activists believe the position they urge on the public, consistency demands they not only tolerate bestiality but treat it as possessing equal rights to human-centric sex. Otherwise they are guilty of the illiberal prejudice of claiming that their kind of love is superior to others they deem deviant. And if even the proponents of LGBTQI rights were to admit the legitimacy of privileging one sexual or gender orientation over another, then their main defence against hetero-normativity would collapse.

An extra ‘B’ should also be added to the acronym.

Thus, according to Salter’s argument, the homosexual agenda has an ethical underpinning that would justify bestiality.

Other initials could be added. Why not an ‘R’ for love of robots and dolls? Blow up dolls and simple silicone mannequins with recorded voices are primitive compared to the pleasure model “replicants” depicted in the science fiction classic Blade Runner. Nevertheless, they are beginning to compete for men’s affections.[xi] This is a rapidly growing industry feeding insatiable demand. The Third International Congress on Love and Sex with Robots is to be held in London in December 2017.[xii] Professor Noel Sharkey, chairman of the Foundation for Responsible Robotics, points to guilt-free threesomes as a potential use of sex robots.[xiii] He and colleagues predict that many humans will have sexual relationships with robots. Evidence is already emerging of men feeling embarrassed about seeking sex and companionship from artificial women.[xiv] Women might also suffer embarrassment when robot gigolos become feasible. From the perspective of LGBTQI morality it is wrong to shun or mock people just because they are turned on by machines.

An ‘R’ should be added to ‘LGBTQI’.

Gays should therefore welcome their new robotic sexual overlords.

One suspects that pragmatism is a big reason why LGBTQI activists want to keep polygamy, incest, bestiality and sex robots in the closet. Activists do not want to openly associate with these categories because that would increase opposition. The public might wonder about the implications. If exotic gender identities and same-sex marriage are to be taught in schools as equal to the heterosexual types, why not polygamy, incest, bestiality, and sex dolls? Citizens would be more likely to resist demands for full legal equality until the slippery slope were shown to have principled limits.

LGBTQI campaigns assert that love is equal, yet they help marginalize attachments and acts they find repugnant or inconvenient. The activist community should acknowledge all types of sexuality and marriage that meet their professed moral standard. They should not deceive the public by selectively applying their morality.

Here, Salter is essentially accusing the LGBTQI community of hypocrisy and cherry-picked moral standards. This is not necessarily a problem for LGBTQI White activists, unless they openly promote some or all of the LGBTQI agenda.

Alternatively, activists should abandon their artificial solidarity and the morality they deploy to justify it. They should admit that not all sexual desire and acts and types of marriage are equal. Many will join with the straight binary community in rejecting the appropriateness of polygamy, incest and bestiality. In so doing they might view their own orientation with humility and ponder whether insisting on complete normalisation is good for society.

That includes attempts to normalize this agenda within the confines of White racial nationalism; people who prioritize the interests of their sexual preferences over the good of the race, and who use pro-White activism as a vehicle to promote a particular sexual agenda.  To actually use racialist meetings as homosexual pick-up opportunities, with same-sex sexual harassment, is obviously completely unacceptable. There shouldn’t even be heterosexual activity of that nature at meetings, that is unprofessional and uncalled for, but at least such activity would be consistent with the majority’s normal and reproductively sound healthy sexual preferences.  To promote abnormal sexuality at meetings, to defend it, laugh it off, and/or minimize it in any way, is beyond the pale.

Until LGBTQI activists admit the radical implications of their morality, the spelling of ‘GBTQI’ and its variations should be contested. Rearranging the extra letters discussed, consistency demands an extra ‘B’, ‘I’, ‘R’ and ‘P’ (at least). In addition, the rainbow flag deserves a jarring additional stripe standing for the arbitrarily excluded categories as well as the hypocrisy of LGBTQI activists. Such as honest inclusive symbol would also serve to inform the public of where the arguments of the radical sexuality and gender movement logically lead.

Once again, Salter labels members of the gay movement as hypocrites who arbitrarily draw lines for acceptability to include their own preferences, but excluding those of others who, by LGBTQI ethics and logic, should have the same fundamental rights.  

Let us add ‘BIRP’ to ‘LGBTQI’ until activists apply their arguments consistently. When they do, they also will adopt the extra letters and perhaps some other besides.

“Others besides.”  The mind boggles.

So, at this point, what do we have?  It depends if you accept the legitimacy of Salter’s arguments. I essentially do so accept them and all they imply about the ethics of the hmosexual agenda, which is of course directly relevant to the issue of homosexuality in the “movement.”  Is this essay by Salter necessarily incompatible with what he previously wrote in On Genetic Interests? I do not believe it is, although it may be an evolution in thinking, based on various factors, including perhaps the increased “in your face” militancy of gay activists. The compatibility between the two works would be if one accepts a baseline of tolerance for homosexuality predicated on practitioners of that preference respecting core features of an EGI-based approach to society: heteronormalization, marriage for heterosexuals only, pro-natalism, respect for traditional family formation and values, as well as the usual interests in immigration control and racial preservation.

At this point, my fundamental viewpoint of minimal tolerance, as outlined at the beginning of this essay, and which existed before this Salter essay, remains, but with some important clarifications.

Thus, at this point, I would still maintain that homosexuals can play a role in the racial activism, providing:

1. They are not in the top leadership. They can be prominent members and important contributors, but not at the top of the hierarchy, as all of the various moral, social, ethical, etc. issues outlined by Salter and others come into play at the highest level.  

2. Homosexuals in the “movement” who are playing an important (albeit not top leadership roles, as stated above) need to be open about themselves and their preferences.  This will prevent blackmail and other pressure from the System/Left and avoid unpleasant “surprises” for the rank-and-file later on.

3. Most importantly, homosexuals in the “movement” should, as explained above, respect “key features of an EGI-based approach to society: heteronormalization, marriage for heterosexuals only, pro-natalism, respect for traditional family formation and values, as well as the usual interests in immigration control and racial preservation.”  They should not be pushing homosexual apologia, promoting homosexuality in general, defending gay marriage, or enabling and/or condoning homosexual harassment/pickups at pro-White meetings.

While the points above can allow for minimal tolerance, it does not seem like they have been followed.

In Part II, we will look at Andrew Joyce’s objections to tolerance and consider if the viewpoint I promote here needs to be adjusted based on Joyce’s arguments.

Race and Movement News, 7/13/19

In der news.

Another good Taylor video. I had to laugh about the “warpath” part.

Excerpts from another “emotional nerve” comment left at the HBD “West Coast White nationalist” Counter-Currents site,  emphasis added:

The problem is, aside from cattiness, that they always feel the need to bring up Greeks (ancient only, for they know not a thing about any other era, and really, they know very little of even the ancient ones), Italians (they are ESPECIALLY and GLEEFULLY brutal to Italians), Spaniards/Portuguese, etc. Why not just leave it out and just STFU about them? You cannot prove your point with repeating lies about meds (or slavs)???? Really, you can’t?

“……….Pan-Europeanism is our only way out.”

It can’t work BECAUSE of this BS.

@Ash
“I seem to have struck an emotional nerve with you and a few others.”

Typical response really. When a repeater of nordypoo nonsense is called out, always surprised that meds dare to take their own side in a fight, there is talk of “emotion.” But my dear, dear Ash, there was no need to repeat that lie. The whole post could’ve been done without that usual, tired, jealous jab. I understand that nordies feel put upon and cowed by non-whites and anti-white propaganda; but they always try to pump themselves up by ripping on meds and slavs, who played no part in that propaganda, do not attack nordies at all and are not anti-nordy….so WTF?????? Such catty swipes seem to be currency in these circles.

I agree with all of that, and it is good some folks have answered the original inane post. Certainly, the fetishists have a particular sweaty animus toward (Southern) Italians – to them, several rungs below Negroes and Australian Aboriginals on the racial scale.  And the indirect allusion to Sallis’ Law is always correct – Der Movement will always bring up their attacks against Southern (and Eastern) Europeans regardless of the context. If “Ash Donaldson” wrote an article about the weather, or the price of milk, or the design attributes of the Atlas ICBM, or whatever…there would have to be the obligatory mention of admixture in Southern (and/or Eastern) Europe. What self-respecting “movement” post would be without it?

And I agree, pan-Europeanism is not going to work as long as there are people who openly lie about racial history and population genetics to fuel their obsessive dogma, which they proselytize with all the fervor of a crazed priest of the Spanish Inquisition or a modern-day cultist.

We’ve certainly come a long way since the days of Larry Scott, eh?

Di, Di, Di…versiteeee…..

We’ve certainly come a long way since the days of Christy Mathewson, eh?

Di, Di, Di…versiteeee…