Odds and Ends, 10/9/22

In der news.

If:

• 1. You work for an institution that promotes “equity” while having, as almost all institutions do, a standard administrative structure.
• 2. You want to be a “ball buster.”
• 3. You do not believe that doing this will get you fired.

Then you can ask why an institution that is devoted to equity has a hierarchical administrative structure, in which some people have higher status, more power and authority, and a much higher salary, than everyone else?  Why doesn’t the entity have a more equitable, egalitarian structure, in which everyone has the same status and authority, and the same salary (suggesting that will really make them burn), with decisions made by discussion, consensus, and voting?

And you can imagine how various excuses they may make can be torn apart.  Everyone had an equal opportunity to rise?  False!  How do they know? The current leadership benefitting from structural advantages, an invisible knapsack of privilege, and others never had the same opportunities and support to rise to the positions they deserve.  Why does leadership believe they should have more authority and a higher salary than others?  Do they think they are better than the rest of us?  And it is argued that they are being rewarded for hard work, effort, ambition, education, etc. – think of the fun you can have with that.  Why isn’t the same applied to society as a whole?  Etc. etc.  If you are a skilled debater, and believe you can aggressively argue the points without “getting canned” then you can eviscerate their hypocrisy.

The Coco Chow thing is funny and all (and HBDers gnash their teeth in fury) but it underscores the basic problem with Trump – all bark and no bite; he speaks loudly and carries a twig. When President, did he even attempt to do anything to limit Asian immigration, Asian birth tourism, or the Asian takeover of American STEM? Nothing that I am aware of. The optimal combination for a political figure of the authentic Right is calm talk coupled with radical action. Trump does the opposite. His big mouth triggers the Left into thinking “Fascist! Nazi! Racist!” but The God Emperor actually governed like John McCain on estrogen treatments.

This is how Cleary responds to a detailed refutation of his nonsense:

Collin ClearyOctober 2, 2022 at 4:31 am

TLDR

Of course. Der Right never addresses serious criticism. They ignore it, do childish TLDR posts, call you crazy, or like MacDonald engage in ad hominem (“it’s a self-interested wop”) and strawman arguments (talking about family structure instead of addressing my arguments about ethnocentrism and definitions of individualism).

These guys cannot even address arguments from the Right; how will they respond to the intellectual salvos from the Left?

Writing TLDR is not going to cut it, retards.

See this.

As a black resident said after the Supreme Court put a failed Kansas City school desegregation program out of its misery in 1995, “We’re tired of chasing white people.”

Ah, but that’s the point isn’t it? On the one hand, we are told that Whites are evil, racist, harmful to “Black bodies,” and Blacks have “fatigue” from Whites and need to “escape the White gaze.” And here we have the honest admission that the history of race relations and integration in America is that of Blacks “chasing white people.” Whites run away from Blacks, and then Blacks follow with the intensity of a parasite desperately clinging to its host, or a predator hunting prey – until such time that Blacks become “tired” and Whites live so far from their jobs that they need hours-long daily commutes. And think of the “diversity tax” that Whites pay in addition to the long commutes (and gas prices related to that) – the isolation from urban-cultural centers and from other family members who are scattered across America, the high home prices, the costs inherent in constantly moving again and again, etc. Whites are tired of running from Black people.

Listen to this.  With respect to the issue of whether Yockey was correct in favoring the USSR over the USA, with the latter being “The Enemy of Europe,” I don’t fall in with either side. I believe that Yockey’s pro-Soviet attitude and his reasoning behind that was one of the weakest aspects of his work, but, on the other hand, Yockey was prescient in the sense that Eastern Europe has ended up better, with respect to demographics and culture, than the Western Europe of liberal democracy and American control.  But Johnson is correct in his denunciation of communism. However, Johnson neglected an important argument (apart from his reasonable argument that the situation was more a result of WWII and consequent events rather than Soviet rule per se) – that the situation of Eastern Europe today exists after a situation in which the USSR was effectively opposed by the “West” and, eventually, lost the Cold War. Do we know for certain that Eastern Europe would have ended up as well if the USSR had won the Cold War, particularly if they successfully conquered Western Europe?  A victorious USSR would not have had to placate Eastern European nationalist sensibilities in order to keep those people in line (without having had to send in the tanks, like they did, for example, in Hungary and Czechoslovakia)?  Perhaps a victorious USSR would have been in a position of strength to indulge in internationalist Marxism, including Eurasian panmixia. Who knows? There is no guarantee that the situation in Eastern Europe would have been the same with a victorious USSR as compared to the history we actually experienced.

Note all of the talk there about “ethnonationalism” not racial nationalism. Johnson and Counter-Currents having de facto control and influence over Yockey’s work is extremely dangerous. The meaning of Yockey can be distorted to serve the Culture Retardation objectives of Counter-Currents. In that podcast, Johnson terms Yockey as an enemy and as an adversary, which proves my point. 

Correct:

DorfmannOctober 4, 2022 at 9:41 pm

Ironically, Yockey would view the ethnonationalists at Counter-Currents as enemies of Europe.

Delenda est Counter-Currents!

I more or less agree with this. However:

All of this can be added to the list of reasons why young white men should think twice before attending college.

Bullshit. I understand that mindset goes well with the downwardly mobile hobbit hole mentality of WN 3.0, where nice high IQ Jews and Asians can dominate the professions, and use their consequent power to suppress White ethnics, but according to Sallis 1.0, White men should not surrender academia and the professions to the other.

Should you be accused of sexual misconduct, your rights cannot be guaranteed. 

True, but you should sue, sue, sue, including leveraging Title IX against them. A process biased against men violates the letter of Title IX and you need to find appropriate rightist lawyers to wage lawfare against the college/university.

If you must go to college because your future line of work requires it, avoid socializing with female students.

Bingo! Avoid the yeastbucket. Of course, that will open up the White whores for Colored males, but that’s their cup of tea anyway, eh?

Avoidance may not prevent all false accusations, however, only make them less likely. A malicious yeastbucket can still file a false accusation for any number of reasons. She may be bored. She may dislike a man for some reason, including if he has right-wing politics. She may, in her estrogenic fever dreams, imagine incidents that do not occur. Or, it may be directly related to avoidance. Imagine if Karen Tunasmell is infatuated with Chad Musclebound. Chad avoids/ignores/rejects her because he is MGTOW or she is grotesque. In revenge, she files a false charge, and milady must be always believed, right?

Gab correspondent Jack98 alerts us to this. That is entirely consistent with what I’ve been writing on my blogs for years – that much of the grand Chinese “scientific accomplishment,” as measured by publications, that the HBDers rave about about and use to promote Chinese intellectual superiority, is based on fraud. Indeed, I have relayed over the years personal anecdotes with my own experiences with Chinese fraud (and incompetence, never mind extreme ethnocentrism) in American STEM. And yet, we have this.  Sallis right, Der Movement wrong.

Der Movement is always, always, ALWAYS wrong.

Who is White?

It seems that someone at Amren comments is rejecting “Coloreds Are Us” WN 3.0:

To me it is not “race realism” per se that is important, it is White Race Realism that is exclusively important to me. I don’t care if Yellows, Blacks, Browns believe that race is important and then favor their own race over others. I only care if Whites believe that race is important and then favor Whites over others.

Excellent. Another Amren comment:

PanEuroFuturist

“Spanish people aren’t really all that white”

Yes, they are. White means racially European. Last time I checked, Spain is in Europe. Does that mean all White ethnic groups are the same? No, of course not. But Europeans all cluster together genetically except for some of the North Asian and Central Asian types that exist in parts of Scandinavia and Russia. Nordicism is a cancer that has plagued our race for far too long. We can not afford to be divided and weak when all the non-White world stands against us. Nordicism is race treason which is why it is so often promoted by our enemies both from within and without.

Call to Action, 9/30/22

And Odds and Ends that are in der news.

Call to Action:

My reaction to this is – Fuck You, “Gregory Hood.” I for one am sick of Amren and its “litany of woe” posts without that site ever giving its readers a viable plan of action to do anything about any of it. No, instead we get this here from them. That’s it. Let’s all get together and discuss the Amren idea that by every standard, Asians are superior to Whites. That’ll save us no doubt, right? Or how about this ridiculous nonsense from Counter-Currents (see more about that below) – is that the solution?

Der Movement itself is the biggest threat to Whites, not all of the retarded Coloreds that Hood quotes. It is Der Movement that is standing in the way of the development of an effective White resistance. It is Der Movement that clogs up the political and metapolitical niche space on the Far Right, preventing the growth of healthy alternatives, much like weeds choke off healthy productive plant growth in a garden. If therefore stands to reason that Der Movement must be opposed and defeated if we ever have a chance of developing the healthy alternatives that can stand up to the System.

This post is therefore yet another Call to Action by the Sallis Groupuscule for sane activists, those who are disenchanted by Der Movement and its motley crew of freaks, defectives, incompetents, fetishists, and grifters, to make a stand against Der Movement.  Over and over again I say this, post after post, year after year, and there is no real response. I have to assume that either everyone is satisfied with Der Movement and I’m yelling to the wind or else some people are disenchanted by simply don’t care enough to do anything about it.

And there’s plenty you can do, apart from the obvious tactic of withholding support from Der Movement.  You can join with the Sallis Groupuscule, including following this blog and my Gab account and, more importantly, contributing material to the Sallis Groupuscle blog, targeting Der Movement and proposing alternatives.  I can be reached at my Gab account.  Or you can start your own blogs, your own sites, your own entities. You can organize IRL locally. You can, even at the lowest level of resistance, go to  “movement” blogs, websites, livestreams, social media accounts, etc. and challenge their self-interested and moronic paradigms. Or do something else – maybe you have other ideas, but if you are disgruntled, there is more to do than merely read this post, agree with it, and then forget about it all as if none of this is a serious problem.

Odds and Ends:

There are many Whites, including those fairly far on the right, who are afraid of radical change, as they do not want their comfortable lives disrupted.  However, radical change is going to occur whether they like it or not, and indeed, such change has been occurring, always in the direction of the anti-White Left. So, the question simply is – our change or their change? If we do nothing, they win by default. Unlike what some deluded conservatives have believed, we cannot successfully stop history.  We can only attempt to channel it in the proper direction. Change is coming.

And here in this Counter-Currents post we have the ideological, metaphysical underpinning of Der Movement and its Bring Out Your Dead ethnostate.  We observe a promotion of, and celebration of, irrationality and ignorance, the elevation of superstition above science, and, as is always the case with these mendacious retarded traditionalists, a complete misunderstanding of science. Science is a method, not a set of “laws” or a compilation of facts; indeed, if it is discovered, via empirical analysis, that “Friday the 13th” indeed results in a greater frequency of misfortune (so defined), and if a testable and falsifiable hypothesis can be proposed, then science – or better, the scientific method – will support the (tentative) validity of the finding. And, by the way, predictions of future events based on the past are based on (again, tentative) understanding of underlying mechanisms, based on hypotheses that have so far survived falsification. In this sense, we can make predictions of what would happen if, say, a traditionalist Counter-Currents writer jumps off the roof of a tall building in the belief that Odin will save him. In that fervently-hoped-for scenario, predictions can be made based on various natural “laws” derived from the scientific method, and the outcome of that scenario would, I am sure, match the predictions from those “laws” more than it would match traditionalist retardation. 

I won’t even bother pointing out, to a degree more than this sentence, the ludicrous hypocrisy of these types using the technics of modern society, which are all based on the work of science, to live their daily lives, including the use of harnessed electricity, computers, and the Internet to spread their drivel – as opposed to, say, using runes, Norse spells, and black cats to spread the message.  

As I have been saying, a victory by Der Movement would literally bring Whites down to the level of the Dark Ages, leading to the destruction of Whites by both avoidable natural disasters as well as attack by technological savvy opponents. Of course, the real danger is that Der Movement destroys Whites by delegitimizing sane activism and by filling the Far Right niche space with unspeakable stupidity, therefore alienating normal, productive people and preventing the emergence of alternatives that would actually have a reasonable chance at saving Whites.

While I am critical of Nutzis who are enthusiastically hyper-pessimistic about Meloni in Italy, that does not mean that I am optimistic about that. Four issues:

1. Wops always disappoint.

2. Der Right always disappoints.

3. I am not fond of female leaders in any endeavor, certainly not as a national leader.

4. The characteristics that allow someone to achieve power are not the same that allow them to be an effective leader; it is very rare for an individual to exhibit both sets of characteristics. Given the oft-cited “volatility” of Italian politics, Meloni needs to demonstrate fairly quickly that she is such an individual.

Point of No Return

Book review: An analysis of Anglo-America.  In all cases, emphasis added.

Let us consider the author John Marquand, who concentrated on America’s Anglo-American elites, particularly the “Yankee” New England stock.

Marquand’s life and work reflected his ambivalence about American society — and, in particular, the power of its old-line elites. Being rebuffed by fashionable Harvard did not discourage his social aspirations…

…In the late 1930s, Marquand began producing a series of novels on the dilemmas of class. Most centered on New England, and some were at least partially set in Clyde, Massachusetts, a fictional seaside community based strongly on Marquand’s Newburyport. The first of these novels, The Late George Apley (1937), a satire of Boston’s upper class, won the Pulitzer Prize for the Novel in 1938. Other Marquand novels exploring New England and class themes include Wickford Point (1939), H.M. Pulham, Esquire (1941), and Point of No Return (1949). The last is especially notable for its satirical portrayal of Harvard anthropologist W. Lloyd Warner, whose Yankee City study attempted (and in Marquand’s view, dismally failed) to describe and analyze the manners and mores of Newburyport…

…For all of his ambivalence about America’s elite, Marquand ultimately succeeded not only in joining it, but in embodying its characteristics. He forgave the upper crust classmates who had snubbed him in college…

Of particular interest is Point of No Return, which I have read:

Raised in the small town of Clyde, Massachusetts, Charles Gray has worked long and hard to become a vice president at the privately owned Stuyvesant Bank in Manhattan. But at the most crucial moment of his career, when his focus should be on reading his boss’s intentions and competing with his chief rival for promotion, Charles finds himself hopelessly distracted by the past.

Years ago, the Gray family was featured in a sociological study of their hometown. Charles, his sister, and their parents were classified as members of the “lower-upper class,” the unspoken strains of their tenuous social status cast in stark black and white. A chance encounter with the author of the study fills Charles’s head with memories—and when a business matter compels him to return to Clyde, it seems as if fate is intent on turning back the clock. As he reflects on the defining moments of his youth, Charles contends with one of the central mysteries of existence: how our lives can feel both predetermined and random at the same time.

Published in 1949, Point of No Return is a brilliant study of character and place heralded by the New York Times as “further proof that its author is one of the most important living American novelists.”

There is a little bit of Sallis’ Law in this 1949 book; as the WASP protagonist and his wife come home from a country club (inhabited by equally insouciant co-ethnics), he says to his wife (who visited a (“Italian”) shoe shop during the day): “I wonder why Italians always like to repair shoes.”  This is of course completely superfluous to the plot, a bit of WASP contempt for White ethnics thrown in. Whether that is reflective of the author, or if the author is trying to tell us something about his book’s characters, I do not know.  But, again, superfluous to the plot, but interesting as a focus on White ethnic immigrants and children of immigrants trying to make a living as small business craftsmen, while Jews were stealing America away from its founding stock.  Later in the book there is another completely superfluous Sallis’ Law comment, this one about “Sicilian peasants” “hiding women.”  It is quite remarkable that all of the crazed sweaty obsessive fetishism about Italians that we observe in today’s “movement” was already present in embryonic form in a popular 1949 novel.  Again I stress how completely superfluous those comments were to the storyline, unless it was the author’s intention to demonstrate how America’s WASP elite considered White ethnics to be like insects to be contemptuously examined and ridiculed. 

One particularly pompous character in the book was disdainful of those in the town who were not of the “good Yankee stock,” as he put it, and was horrified by how the crude behaviors of the White ethnic Morlocks affected those of the Eloi females. This same person also had class prejudices against his own co-ethnics; thus, his refusal to allow his WASP daughter to marry the “lower-class” (but still upper middle class) WASP protagonist of the book was a defining moment in the life of the latter. Remember, at this time, the Jews were conquering America and today, such an individual would smile benignly as his daughter came home with a brutal Negro.  

Further, the pompous character disparaged “stock market money” as being inferior to “inherited wealth.” Now, as the story line overlaps the stock market crash of 1929, apologists in Der Movement would attempt to retroactively justify the pompous fool’s comments (that were made before the crash, when the market was booming) but that isn’t the point, is it?  He wasn’t criticizing “stock market money” because he thought such investments were unsafe, oh no. After all, he also looked down upon upwardly mobile newly rich neighbors who earned their monies by inventions and/or ownership or productive companies.  The problem with “stock market money” was that it was “crass” and “uncouth” and “undignified” as opposed to the stately dignity of inherited wealth.  That’s why the newly rich created by productive hard work were also looked down upon (even when they were his co-ethnics) – they were crude grasping plebeians, not aristocratic patricians like himself.  When the book’s protagonist, the immediate target of this snobbery, justifiably pointed out that every family had to start somewhere, suggesting that at one point the pompous fool’s own family had to start somewhere, had to be at one time upwardly mobile grasping plebes generating the wealth that now bestowed patrician status, those reasonable comments fell on deaf ears. The pompous fool “had his” and all that’s mattered, who cares about the right or wrong of it?   In addition, the protagonist’s wealthy WASP boss also has the same disdain for people who have become rich “the wrong way,”  Thus, he complains about his exclusive community being tainted by people uncouthly earning money through advertising or skin cream business – we certainly can’t have that!

No doubt “movement” “traditionalists” and Anglomaniac worshippers of America’s WASP Yankee elites will defend and celebrate this aristocratic disdain for grasping upward mobility and “stock market money,” but, alas, groups like the Jews had no such compunctions or prejudices.  No, money was money, and money was power, and if that money and power was produced by the crudest grasping behavior, so be it.  Stock market?  Criminal activity?  Moneylending? Hollywood?  Peddling? Business ownership?  Sweat shops? Nothing was disdained, nothing was rejected.  With the money and the consequent power came the conquest of America (aided by the brainwashing of the goyim aided by such “crude” moneymaking enterprises like the movie industry, and, later, television) and the dispossession of WASPs who looked down on such lowbrow merchants and fast-talking conmen.  It didn’t matter though, and eventually the WASPs were forced to work with the Jews, as their junior partners, in an alliance to suppress the upward mobility of the White ethnics, a remaining threat that could still be constrained as the Jews were not.  The WASPs were not going to make the same mistake twice; they may have had to settle for second place behind the Jews, but they weren’t going to let upstart White ethnics erode WASP power and prestige (whatever was left of it) any further. If that meant alliances – and in some cases even inter-marriage – with Jews, so be it.  Better to salvage something of patrician exclusiveness, regardless of how degenerate, than show second place with Italians whose parents “worked with shoes” or were “needle workers” or whose parents were “raw Slavs” from Chicago’s slaughterhouses. Holding one’s nose to mingle with Jewish Wall Streeters and Hollywood movie moguls was bad enough, but to deal with hard-working craftsmen and first generation middle-class professionals who came from Europe’s South and East?  Impossible!  Even the Northwest European Irish Catholics were held at arm’s length; even the “lace curtain Irish” were looked down upon.  But – Italians and Slavs?  Greeks and Hungarians?  What?  Are you mad?

In summary, the WASPs were narrowly focused on the epiphenomena of their elitism (and attitudes of contemptuous superiority toward White ethnics) without properly focusing on the actual levels of power, which was seized from the WASPs by the Jews. Instead, WASPs thought that keeping Jews out of country clubs accomplished something useful; instead, that behavior did nothing but embitter Jews and make them more dedicated to their program of vengeance. So, the dispossessed WASPs became junior partners to their new masters, the Jews, and together they waged war against White ethnics. Particularly given the Jewish conquest of America and political dispossession of the founding stock (well underway in 1949), this book is not a flattering portrait of America’s “Yankee” WASP elite

In general, the navel-gazing ethnocultural self-absorption of the book is quite remarkable, but that may be the point. The Wikipedia summary of the book asserts that one of the book’s characters – an academic who did a study of the social structure of a New England town (the home town of the book’s WASP protagonist) – was a parody of real-life academic W. Lloyd Warner who performed similar scholarly activities.  And author Marquand also specialized in these sorts of social critiques in his books, so in a sense the book is a self-mockery of the author’s own obsessions. In any case, the ethnic self-absorption is still remarkable.

Read this for additional context.

[Spoiler alert]

The story line itself was a bit dull and certainly anti-climactic. The protagonist Charles Gray experiences some tragedy. His older brother dies in WWI. His feckless, dithering, procrastinating, romantic dreamer of a father loses all of his money in the 1929 stock market crash and commits suicide, which is covered up.  Charles Gray gives away his own savings to his family, pretending that this money was his father’s money (as if it was never lost) and now cannot marry his WASP princess girlfriend (with whom he has had a passionate relationship) – her father, the pompous fool described above, being against the relationship (for class reasons) in the first place. Chuck then goes away, gets a good bank job in NYC, becomes successful, marries another WASP, has children, and is in the running for promotion to be VP of the bank (this is the current day “stress” of the story) after returning from WWII (he had volunteered despite being ~ 40 years old and with children).  He now needs to go back to his small home town on business.  Now, here is where the book goes off the rails – you would expect, as some sort of dramatic climax, that he has a “showdown” with his ex-girlfriend.  But, no.  He visits his best friend from his boyhood – an anxious, hyper-grasping, small town mini-success and finds out that this “inferior man” is now engaged to the former WASP princess. You see, she had been pining away for Chuck for years, but now, middle aged and desperate, she has given up and has fallen in with the grasping friend – her pompous father now too old and demented to object. The friend tells Charles that this old girlfriend is anxious to see Charles – she knows he is back in town – but Chuck refuses.  And that’s that.  Perhaps that anti-climax is more realistic; I don’t know. He then goes back home and is invited, with his wife, to his boss’ elegant mansion for “supper.”  From the conversation he believes that he is going to be told that he has lost the promotion to a colleague – another anxious grasping type obviously modeled after his boyhood friend – but instead finds out that he has gotten the promotion, which makes him feel “dull and tired” and not what he “dreamed.” Apparently, Chuck is dissatisfied with his rat-race life, and perhaps secretly dreams of having made a life with his former WASP princess, but, no, poor Chuck must “make do” with a successful business career, a helpful wife, and two well-adjusted children. Oh, the agony!  The end.

Apparently then, the entire objective of the book was to dissect “Yankee” WASP culture, since there really wasn’t much of an interesting story there at all.

Odds and Ends, 9/10/22

In der news.

So, Taylor spent time in West Africa, MacDonald spent time teaching in Jamaica, Johnson taught at Black Morehouse College, and Ruston fathered an illegitimate child with a Negress. These specimens are living advertisements for my Racial Proximity Theory; they have a natural attraction and affection for Color, in these cases the worst of the lot, the Negro. That contrasts to their disdain for White ethnics. I won’t even get into those people on the Right with Asian wives and of course the rampant Yellow Supremacism and the whole WN 3.0 Kumar-Matthews-Malkin, etc. stupidity.

Is the racialism of the Quota Queens a form of noblesse oblige? The paternalistic High Trusters will uplift the Coloreds – The White Man’s Burden. In order to protect the Coloreds, White ethnic bigots must be opposed; thus, the Quota Queens are Far Right versions of John Lindsay.

Just like authentic White conservatives get turned off by Turk Oz and his “Democrats are the real racists” spiel so will authentic White nationalists get turned off by Taylor telling them “that frog-faced, covid-spewing Chinaman over there is your superior by every objective standard.”

If you want to discourage and dispirit White activists, telling them that a race of “human” photocopiers is their objectively absolute superior is a good way to do it. Whites are not going to fight under the banner of Yellow Supremacy.

Der Right is hostile to the French Revolution and of course I myself dislike that revolution’s ideology of leftist egalitarianism. However, the parasitical French monarchy and nobility got what was coming to them, and the revolution opened up the path to Napoleon, so it wasn’t all bad. The UK should be a republic. The Queen is dead, depose the King.  Let Charlie earn a living digging ditches or something.

Those good White Southrons voted for her, so…you made your bed, lie in it.

The Hobbit Hole Nerds can simply not watch that nonsense. Let it collapse financially. But, no. They’ll whine and complain and then jack off to hobbit holes.

I’m getting sick and tired of constantly getting Torba’s “Christian nationalism” spam. Just like the System constantly pushing Negroes in my face makes me more anti-Black, so do the Jaysus freaks pushing their religion 24/7 makes me more anti-Christian. And what is it? Just like “National Bolshevism” is for people too cowardly just to say they are National Socialists, “Christian nationalism” is for people too cowardly to say they are White nationalists.

And why is Torba hiding out in the PA woods when he can be living in, and spreading the good word of “Christian nationalism” in, say, Detroit or Chicago or NYC or any other place where there are so many nice Christian dark-hued Children of God? These guys talk Christian but live White.